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Apr. 3rd, 2005 05:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
blue_ajahTodana! O, Discordia. No devar'can, fangon, kas-ka-eld, kas-ka-cam. char fangon, tet-a-cam-devar, tet-a-cam-ka, a-ka-Dis, cam-a-cam-mal. char devar-toi, char fangon. Todana! Ka, charyou tree.
O, lost beyond saving! O, Discordia. No longer prisoners, exiles, ye gunslingers, servants of the White. Death to the exiled one, the group that triumphed over prison, the group who triumphed over destiny, against the forces of Chaos, white over red (good over evil). Death to the prison in the waste land, death to the exiled one. O, you lost beyond hope of help or succor! Come, reap your fate.
Todana! O, Discordia. dama-Roland, kas-ka-eld, kas-ka-cam. char dama, tet-a-cam-ka, cam-a-cam-ka, ka-Gan, cam-a-cam-mal. no char kas-ka-Gan, char dama. Todana! Ka, charyou tree.
O, lost beyond saving! O, Discordia. Head of Roland, gunslinger, servant of the White. Death to the head, as the tet overcomes fate, the creator; good triumphs over evil. No death to the writer, but death to the head.
O, you lost beyond hope of help or succor! Come, reap your fate.
Dama.
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johnaltum: *is once again distracted by King-linguistics*
Aspenx3: Oh?
johnaltum: the a in cam-a-cam-mal
Aspenx3: as opposed to an "o"?
johnaltum: well, that too
Aspenx3: *looks attentive*
johnaltum: what i meant is, urs-ka-gan v. urs-a-ka-gan
Aspenx3: Mmmm...
johnaltum: song of the bear v. cry or scream of the bear
Aspenx3: *thoughtful*
johnaltum: argh long sentences break my brain
Aspenx3: the a seems to -- intensify somehow?
johnaltum: or make unpleasant, yeah
johnaltum: maybe... if... cam was white, a-cam might be victory or something?
johnaltum: to triumph over
johnaltum: so mal as red
johnaltum: why dis doesn't appear at all, god knows
johnaltum: and that toi is killing me
johnaltum: because i thought i had toi figured out until it appeared here
Aspenx3: *nod* King's linguistics morph, too.
Aspenx3: a little.
johnaltum: every word has many meanings *nod*
johnaltum: but i can't think of a root concept broad enough
johnaltum: i thought toi meant waste land
johnaltum: or drawers
johnaltum: because can-toi is children of the desert
Aspenx3: *nod*
johnaltum: and devar-toi as the prison in the waste lands makes sense
johnaltum: delah is many... assumanbly ever, here
Aspenx3: true... on both counts there
johnaltum: so pria-toi has to be what's translated as 'wills'
Aspenx3: and why did my mind just jump to "there will be water if God wills it"
johnaltum: khef (if) pria-toi Gan
Aspenx3: which seems appropriate with a desert theme; the breaking of the dryness and fastness of the waste land...
johnaltum: hmm. prim-pria?
johnaltum: pria-toi could be to call into being?
johnaltum: like the pun on Drawers and to draw?
johnaltum: to draw from nothing
Aspenx3: *thoughtful again* could be. also one draws water, it wells up...
johnaltum: *nod*
johnaltum: come-commala / cam-a-cam-mal is interesting
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: come-commala as the reiteration of the natural state of the universe
johnaltum: of the natural order
*** You have been disconnected. Fri Feb 11 16:59:32 2005.
*** johnaltum signed on at Fri Feb 11 16:59:39 2005.
Aspenx3: *sporks net*
Aspenx3: I bet that didn't come through. *retypes*
johnaltum: *wonders how to pronounce c and if there's really a difference between c and k*
Aspenx3: come-commala. the rice song; life, growth, the natural cycle.
Aspenx3: life for your crop. *idly*
johnaltum: *nodnod*
johnaltum: *nodnod*
johnaltum: pria:prim :: ka : cam ?
*** You have been disconnected. Fri Feb 11 17:01:11 2005.
*** johnaltum signed on at Fri Feb 11 17:01:17 2005.
johnaltum: hang on...
Aspenx3: *clings to chat net, hanging hopefully*
johnaltum: ...huh.
Aspenx3: ?
johnaltum: *stares at king*
johnaltum: kas means both wave and singer
Aspenx3: ... does it not say somewhere that the song of the rose rolls over them like a wave?
Aspenx3: or am I completely making that up?
johnaltum: because kal in aven-kal is tsunami, and is used 'instead of the more common kas'
johnaltum: no, i think so
johnaltum: it makes sense
johnaltum: you have to get at the root metaphor of ka
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: which i'm pretty sure has to be water, related to khef
Aspenx3: khef and ka do seem to show up almost synergistically
johnaltum: kas-ka would be...waves on the water, not thee water itself
johnaltum: and the singing just as a metaphor
Aspenx3: nod
johnaltum: *looks for boating in the distant gileadian past*
johnaltum: because ka is the place you are going, as well
johnaltum: sometimes king uses it to me life-force, but that's slowly replaced by khef
johnaltum: ka maybe is moving water?
Aspenx3: flowing, somehow? *not sure*
johnaltum: as opposed to stationary khef
johnaltum: char is the only word without ten thousand meanings
Aspenx3: it's pretty unambiguous yes. well. I think so.
johnaltum: sweeney points out the shape in kohl under death's eye must mean char
johnaltum: the rose shape is white... cam, if our theory is right
Aspenx3: ... *nod*
johnaltum: *wonders about a relationship between can and cam and Gan*
johnaltum: and tod- is a root for lost
johnaltum: todana and todash
johnaltum: O lost, todana, O! Discordia
Aspenx3: *nod nod* ... you know, I'd love to see you put this in an OOC post or something for linguistic discussion
Aspenx3: *saves log in the meantime*
johnaltum: *continues to try and believe we don't need a ways_station comm*
Aspenx3: what's the difference in the ana-ash suffixes?
Aspenx3: ... omg and you even have the name.
johnaltum: *cries* It's a bandwagon! I hate bandwagons!
Aspenx3: *pets and comforts* I know. I know.
johnaltum: that i don't know--do we see those suffixes elsewhere?
Aspenx3: not that I can think of at the moment. but working ont he premise that tod- means lost, what root fills the other half of those words?
johnaltum: an is a thing
johnaltum: an-tet
johnaltum: and na'ar has na
Aspenx3: so todana = roughly lost thing, that which is gone beyond recovering?
johnaltum: i think todana might be the death bag, actually, if i recall insomnia
Aspenx3: at work, no canon here. *flails at brain*
johnaltum: yeah, it seems to be a noun form
johnaltum: i have the canon, let me dig
johnaltum: the dark tower wiki says so *distrusts it*
Aspenx3: Hee.
johnaltum: random: "What's known can't be unknown. Save perhaps in death."
johnaltum: according to Big Steve himself
Aspenx3: Interesting.
johnaltum: ok, here we are
johnaltum: "what's a todana?" sounds like todash" "it's a variation on the word. it means deathbag"
Aspenx3: hmmm. specifically says variation of todash?
johnaltum: from roland's mouth.
Aspenx3: intriguing. *scrolls up*
Aspenx3: given that I'd almost suggest that tod- means lost with the stronger connotation of death
Aspenx3: not just misplaced.
johnaltum: tod is german for death
Aspenx3: *laughs* okay, didn't know that. but yay!
Aspenx3: proves a point maybe?
johnaltum: which is why todd's role model always calls him boy
johnaltum: todd bowden, in apt pupil, i mean.
johnaltum: one reason, anyway
Aspenx3: that's a subtlety I'd missed, but it makes rather a lot of sense.
johnaltum: i wonder if -ana is a dimunitive
johnaltum: it sounds like one
johnaltum: oooh
johnaltum: toi - tod ?
johnaltum: a relationship maybe?
Aspenx3: oooo. oh likely!
johnaltum: telamei is to gossip about someone
Aspenx3: I have no idea how to break that down, sadly.
johnaltum: nor do i
johnaltum: just found it looking for the long sentence in dt5
johnaltum: todash tahken, the holes in reality
Aspenx3: tah- has other... oh it's all over Desperation, isn't it?
johnaltum: hey
johnaltum: i ran this by sweeney but i wanted to see what you think
Aspenx3: sure, shoot!
johnaltum: dash-dinh is a religious leader
Aspenx3: like among the Manni?
johnaltum: right
Aspenx3: the ones who can control the todash doors?
johnaltum: *nod*
johnaltum: then there's todash and todana
johnaltum: todana is the name for those deathbags, but it's always used in conjunction with the word lost
johnaltum: "O lost! Todana!"
Aspenx3: ...
Aspenx3: interesting...
johnaltum: then there's the word unfound
johnaltum: and the first two heiroglyphics of it are what makes it unfound
johnaltum: without them it's found
johnaltum: so I am wondering if to- is a negative particle
Aspenx3: ... possibly.
Aspenx3: I will suggest running it by Gen, too, who has I think lots of experience dissecting languages as well
johnaltum: *nod*
Aspenx3: but that seems plausible...
johnaltum: then you have dana as a word meaning found
johnaltum: and there's dan as savior
johnaltum: and also king
Aspenx3: leader.
Aspenx3: as well, no?
johnaltum: and roland says todana is a derivation of the word todash
johnaltum: i'm not sure... they call cullum dan-tete and that means savior
johnaltum: but they also call mordred the little red king, and that's ALSO dan-tete
Aspenx3: I was thinking of dan-dinh? or am I perhaps mis-thinking?
johnaltum: dan-dinh is a really interesting construction
johnaltum: because the only definition we are given is clearly not literal
johnaltum: but maybe... if todana is the deathbag, maybe dana is the normal healthy aura. that could connect to heart
johnaltum: and the king could be seen as the heart of the realm... and also then the connection to savior works
johnaltum: because we're told 'dan-dinh' means 'i open my heart to you'
Aspenx3: That does work.
Aspenx3: and OH. isn't part of the traditional Arthur legend how the king is connected to the land?
johnaltum: maybe... dan/dash are heart and soul?
johnaltum: yeah
johnaltum: the fisher-king again
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: i have been mentally seperate dan and dinh that way
johnaltum: actually using tarot
Aspenx3: It makes sense. It makes quite a lot of sense.
johnaltum: dinh / king of swords - dan / king of cups
Aspenx3: *blinks*
johnaltum: sorry... do you know any tarot? or am i just being confusing?
johnaltum: king of cups is the fisher-king, the empathic king who is one with land etc ; king of swords is the leader/planner/father/general
Aspenx3: I do know tarot, yes, to some degree.
johnaltum: ok
Aspenx3: but am better with major arcana than minor. *grin*
Aspenx3: so thanks for clarification and eep.
johnaltum: king of swords corresponds to the emperor and king of cups... to.. the...
johnaltum: hanged man
johnaltum: fuck
Aspenx3: ...
Aspenx3: *collapses*
johnaltum: ...anyway that is how i have been seperating dan and dinh in my head
johnaltum: and indeed, cups became hearts in the modern deck
johnaltum: so dan-dinh means 'i make you dinh of heart' ie 'i open my heart to your command'
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: and dash-dinh is maybe the dinh of your soul? with dash and dan being closely related words
Aspenx3: I can see that.
johnaltum: esp. since most kinguistic words are CV root + C for meaning tweak
johnaltum: ie ka kas kal
johnaltum: ...
johnaltum: and of course the root is 'da'
johnaltum: *is bright*
Aspenx3: ... of course. *grin*
johnaltum: dinh i suspect is related but not quite so closely the same as ka and khef
johnaltum: (suspects we can invent 'mian' queen from this)
Aspenx3: V. v. likely
Aspenx3: *keeps records of your thought process on these things*
johnaltum: although obviously if to- is a negative particle that's a real jump forward
Aspenx3: it is. a very significant one.
johnaltum: like when they say 'the crimson king has worked a powerful anti-ka' that might be toka
johnaltum: it doesn't have to be... but we have nothing, and made-up words with possible roots are better than total gibberish
Aspenx3: I completely agree with that.
johnaltum: also, have been considering Can-Ka No Rey as Red Fields of None
johnaltum: it's pretty clearly got 'children of ka' in it, despite the translation given
johnaltum: so I am wondering if the blood-roses are called can-ka
Aspenx3: the roses sing.
Aspenx3: isn't there a thought process for ka related to breath and song from there somehow?
johnaltum: yeah, for the singers
johnaltum: we talked about it before i think
johnaltum: Urs'-ka-Gan etc
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: so if Can-ka refers to the roses, that's probaby the red
Aspenx3: so Can-ka could be the roses yes, because of their song and the red.
johnaltum: and I suspect the No is the None, given Stephen King
johnaltum: so that gives us Rey as field
Aspenx3: Yes.
johnaltum: which is a nice practical word
johnaltum: reyes is a name in spanish. i wonder what it means.
Aspenx3: *thinks* I should know.
johnaltum: Kings.
Aspenx3: because I associate it with ... hang on. yes.
johnaltum: *HEADDESK*
johnaltum: royal, roi, yeah. urgh.
johnaltum: ...
johnaltum: maybe No Rey as No King?
johnaltum: ie the Red Fields of None, that belong to none?
johnaltum: because the Crimson King wants to claim them as his?
Aspenx3: ... why the red fields with the analogous word for King before the place where the Crimson King waits?
Aspenx3: but yes, that's plausible.
johnaltum: well, that's what i mean... it would be plausible to say they're his red fields
johnaltum: they're red, they're in front of him
johnaltum: but the translation is specifically 'the red fields of none'
Aspenx3: *nod* no king, of none. I can see it.
johnaltum: also, the Court of the Crimson King is the Casse Roi Russe, and he's Ram Abbalah in Black House
johnaltum: all with the R
Aspenx3: *nod*
johnaltum: Spanish, French, and... gibberish, i think
johnaltum: although I think Abbalah is meant to be King there
johnaltum: they call him 'the Abbalah'
johnaltum: God there are a lot of words for King
Aspenx3: there are. ergh.
johnaltum: do you remember the three k words for head chest and guts?
johnaltum: all i remember is ki because of ki'can
johnaltum: and the word tah is going to give me an aneurysm, i think
johnaltum: but there's this: Mim is the word for Mother Earth
Aspenx3: ...
johnaltum: Mia - Mim / Pria - Prim
Aspenx3: that's not far off Mia.
johnaltum: ?
Aspenx3: ... yes. *nods* I see the logic there
johnaltum: mother / the Mother / magic - the Magic
johnaltum: then pria-toi would be the power of the drawers
johnaltum: to will into being, maybe
johnaltum: which works, so yay.
Aspenx3: Ooo. Yes it does and yay
johnaltum: that's one of 2 full sentences
johnaltum: the other full sentences is Can-ah, can-tah, annah, Oriza
johnaltum: which is supposed to mean "Woman was created by the breath of man, but man was created by Oriza"
johnaltum: so what is can-tah doing in there?
Aspenx3: ... er. I don't know.
johnaltum: the tah in can-tah is probably also the root of taheen
johnaltum: and tahken, as in todash tahken
johnaltum: but what the common thread is, I have no clue
Aspenx3: Not a clue either. *ponders*
johnaltum: and I hate that sentence.
johnaltum: it's got 4 clauses
johnaltum: each one consisting of a single word
Aspenx3: conceptual words, sorta. but yes.
johnaltum: i think the high speech is a lot like chinese
johnaltum: dan-dinh, for instance, wouldn't be out of place
johnaltum: i don't mean the sound, but the formation
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: every chinese character has a ton of meanings
johnaltum: so you usually use a two-character word
Aspenx3: *fascinated* I know that it's complex, but how much so -- I'm limited in study.
johnaltum: ohgod. I hope it's not too much like Chinese, or we could be dealing with homophones.
johnaltum: in which case there's no hope at figuring it out from stephen king's english-based transliteration
Aspenx3: Augh. *fears*
johnaltum: but fortunately conlangers rarely are naturalistic about having total random words be homophones
johnaltum: esp. not decidedly amateur ones.
Aspenx3: One can hope. :)
johnaltum: can you imagine if someone was examining english the same way?
johnaltum: they might deduce we use bears as beasts of burded
johnaltum: *burden
johnaltum: because you bear a weight
Aspenx3: ... the mental image, I swear.
johnaltum: (you also bear children!)
Aspenx3: and then you can get into all sorts of concepts dealing with the meaning of weight, too.
johnaltum: and wait
Aspenx3: *nods*
johnaltum: oh!
johnaltum: Dam = brains
Aspenx3: Oh?
johnaltum: I had noticed that earlier and forgot
johnaltum: yeah
Aspenx3: eee.
johnaltum: ki'dam is shit-for-brains
Aspenx3: I make lots of notes when talking to you on this. *beams*
johnaltum: hehe
johnaltum: Calyx is resumption
johnaltum: because Can means, among other things, a place
johnaltum: and Can Calyx is translated Hall of Resumption
Aspenx3: Cool.
johnaltum: I think Can means basically anything denoted or defined by its relationship to something else
Aspenx3: it enhances somehow?
johnaltum: most often it means 'people' or 'children of'
johnaltum: like the can-toi, or ki'can
johnaltum: but there's also Can-Steek-Tete
johnaltum: it seems like you can stick ka- before any object or person and not really changed the meaning
johnaltum: and the same goes for can and places
johnaltum: like ka-humes
johnaltum: has the same meaning as humes
johnaltum: also, I was thinking about ka-mai/ka-me and ka-shume
johnaltum: I think a reasonable coinage would be ka-shumai, meaning to go obliviously to one's death
Aspenx3: if you're not changing the meaning, what's the point of the ka part then? no wait strike that
Aspenx3: silly question. *headdesks, thinking of meaning of ka*
johnaltum: I think it intensifies sometimes, anyway
johnaltum: Oy thinks of Jake as his ka-dinh
Aspenx3: *nod*
johnaltum: oh! I keep forgetting things...
johnaltum: I thought of a new way to look at dan/dinh
johnaltum: from reading the thing Roland says to tell the Rods, "dan sur, dan tur, dan Roland, dan Gilead."
johnaltum: dan is focused on allegiance and dinh on obedience
Aspenx3: *thoughtful* hmmmm.
O, lost beyond saving! O, Discordia. No longer prisoners, exiles, ye gunslingers, servants of the White. Death to the exiled one, the group that triumphed over prison, the group who triumphed over destiny, against the forces of Chaos, white over red (good over evil). Death to the prison in the waste land, death to the exiled one. O, you lost beyond hope of help or succor! Come, reap your fate.
Todana! O, Discordia. dama-Roland, kas-ka-eld, kas-ka-cam. char dama, tet-a-cam-ka, cam-a-cam-ka, ka-Gan, cam-a-cam-mal. no char kas-ka-Gan, char dama. Todana! Ka, charyou tree.
O, lost beyond saving! O, Discordia. Head of Roland, gunslinger, servant of the White. Death to the head, as the tet overcomes fate, the creator; good triumphs over evil. No death to the writer, but death to the head.
O, you lost beyond hope of help or succor! Come, reap your fate.
Dama.
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johnaltum: *is once again distracted by King-linguistics*
Aspenx3: Oh?
johnaltum: the a in cam-a-cam-mal
Aspenx3: as opposed to an "o"?
johnaltum: well, that too
Aspenx3: *looks attentive*
johnaltum: what i meant is, urs-ka-gan v. urs-a-ka-gan
Aspenx3: Mmmm...
johnaltum: song of the bear v. cry or scream of the bear
Aspenx3: *thoughtful*
johnaltum: argh long sentences break my brain
Aspenx3: the a seems to -- intensify somehow?
johnaltum: or make unpleasant, yeah
johnaltum: maybe... if... cam was white, a-cam might be victory or something?
johnaltum: to triumph over
johnaltum: so mal as red
johnaltum: why dis doesn't appear at all, god knows
johnaltum: and that toi is killing me
johnaltum: because i thought i had toi figured out until it appeared here
Aspenx3: *nod* King's linguistics morph, too.
Aspenx3: a little.
johnaltum: every word has many meanings *nod*
johnaltum: but i can't think of a root concept broad enough
johnaltum: i thought toi meant waste land
johnaltum: or drawers
johnaltum: because can-toi is children of the desert
Aspenx3: *nod*
johnaltum: and devar-toi as the prison in the waste lands makes sense
johnaltum: delah is many... assumanbly ever, here
Aspenx3: true... on both counts there
johnaltum: so pria-toi has to be what's translated as 'wills'
Aspenx3: and why did my mind just jump to "there will be water if God wills it"
johnaltum: khef (if) pria-toi Gan
Aspenx3: which seems appropriate with a desert theme; the breaking of the dryness and fastness of the waste land...
johnaltum: hmm. prim-pria?
johnaltum: pria-toi could be to call into being?
johnaltum: like the pun on Drawers and to draw?
johnaltum: to draw from nothing
Aspenx3: *thoughtful again* could be. also one draws water, it wells up...
johnaltum: *nod*
johnaltum: come-commala / cam-a-cam-mal is interesting
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: come-commala as the reiteration of the natural state of the universe
johnaltum: of the natural order
*** You have been disconnected. Fri Feb 11 16:59:32 2005.
*** johnaltum signed on at Fri Feb 11 16:59:39 2005.
Aspenx3: *sporks net*
Aspenx3: I bet that didn't come through. *retypes*
johnaltum: *wonders how to pronounce c and if there's really a difference between c and k*
Aspenx3: come-commala. the rice song; life, growth, the natural cycle.
Aspenx3: life for your crop. *idly*
johnaltum: *nodnod*
johnaltum: *nodnod*
johnaltum: pria:prim :: ka : cam ?
*** You have been disconnected. Fri Feb 11 17:01:11 2005.
*** johnaltum signed on at Fri Feb 11 17:01:17 2005.
johnaltum: hang on...
Aspenx3: *clings to chat net, hanging hopefully*
johnaltum: ...huh.
Aspenx3: ?
johnaltum: *stares at king*
johnaltum: kas means both wave and singer
Aspenx3: ... does it not say somewhere that the song of the rose rolls over them like a wave?
Aspenx3: or am I completely making that up?
johnaltum: because kal in aven-kal is tsunami, and is used 'instead of the more common kas'
johnaltum: no, i think so
johnaltum: it makes sense
johnaltum: you have to get at the root metaphor of ka
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: which i'm pretty sure has to be water, related to khef
Aspenx3: khef and ka do seem to show up almost synergistically
johnaltum: kas-ka would be...waves on the water, not thee water itself
johnaltum: and the singing just as a metaphor
Aspenx3: nod
johnaltum: *looks for boating in the distant gileadian past*
johnaltum: because ka is the place you are going, as well
johnaltum: sometimes king uses it to me life-force, but that's slowly replaced by khef
johnaltum: ka maybe is moving water?
Aspenx3: flowing, somehow? *not sure*
johnaltum: as opposed to stationary khef
johnaltum: char is the only word without ten thousand meanings
Aspenx3: it's pretty unambiguous yes. well. I think so.
johnaltum: sweeney points out the shape in kohl under death's eye must mean char
johnaltum: the rose shape is white... cam, if our theory is right
Aspenx3: ... *nod*
johnaltum: *wonders about a relationship between can and cam and Gan*
johnaltum: and tod- is a root for lost
johnaltum: todana and todash
johnaltum: O lost, todana, O! Discordia
Aspenx3: *nod nod* ... you know, I'd love to see you put this in an OOC post or something for linguistic discussion
Aspenx3: *saves log in the meantime*
johnaltum: *continues to try and believe we don't need a ways_station comm*
Aspenx3: what's the difference in the ana-ash suffixes?
Aspenx3: ... omg and you even have the name.
johnaltum: *cries* It's a bandwagon! I hate bandwagons!
Aspenx3: *pets and comforts* I know. I know.
johnaltum: that i don't know--do we see those suffixes elsewhere?
Aspenx3: not that I can think of at the moment. but working ont he premise that tod- means lost, what root fills the other half of those words?
johnaltum: an is a thing
johnaltum: an-tet
johnaltum: and na'ar has na
Aspenx3: so todana = roughly lost thing, that which is gone beyond recovering?
johnaltum: i think todana might be the death bag, actually, if i recall insomnia
Aspenx3: at work, no canon here. *flails at brain*
johnaltum: yeah, it seems to be a noun form
johnaltum: i have the canon, let me dig
johnaltum: the dark tower wiki says so *distrusts it*
Aspenx3: Hee.
johnaltum: random: "What's known can't be unknown. Save perhaps in death."
johnaltum: according to Big Steve himself
Aspenx3: Interesting.
johnaltum: ok, here we are
johnaltum: "what's a todana?" sounds like todash" "it's a variation on the word. it means deathbag"
Aspenx3: hmmm. specifically says variation of todash?
johnaltum: from roland's mouth.
Aspenx3: intriguing. *scrolls up*
Aspenx3: given that I'd almost suggest that tod- means lost with the stronger connotation of death
Aspenx3: not just misplaced.
johnaltum: tod is german for death
Aspenx3: *laughs* okay, didn't know that. but yay!
Aspenx3: proves a point maybe?
johnaltum: which is why todd's role model always calls him boy
johnaltum: todd bowden, in apt pupil, i mean.
johnaltum: one reason, anyway
Aspenx3: that's a subtlety I'd missed, but it makes rather a lot of sense.
johnaltum: i wonder if -ana is a dimunitive
johnaltum: it sounds like one
johnaltum: oooh
johnaltum: toi - tod ?
johnaltum: a relationship maybe?
Aspenx3: oooo. oh likely!
johnaltum: telamei is to gossip about someone
Aspenx3: I have no idea how to break that down, sadly.
johnaltum: nor do i
johnaltum: just found it looking for the long sentence in dt5
johnaltum: todash tahken, the holes in reality
Aspenx3: tah- has other... oh it's all over Desperation, isn't it?
johnaltum: hey
johnaltum: i ran this by sweeney but i wanted to see what you think
Aspenx3: sure, shoot!
johnaltum: dash-dinh is a religious leader
Aspenx3: like among the Manni?
johnaltum: right
Aspenx3: the ones who can control the todash doors?
johnaltum: *nod*
johnaltum: then there's todash and todana
johnaltum: todana is the name for those deathbags, but it's always used in conjunction with the word lost
johnaltum: "O lost! Todana!"
Aspenx3: ...
Aspenx3: interesting...
johnaltum: then there's the word unfound
johnaltum: and the first two heiroglyphics of it are what makes it unfound
johnaltum: without them it's found
johnaltum: so I am wondering if to- is a negative particle
Aspenx3: ... possibly.
Aspenx3: I will suggest running it by Gen, too, who has I think lots of experience dissecting languages as well
johnaltum: *nod*
Aspenx3: but that seems plausible...
johnaltum: then you have dana as a word meaning found
johnaltum: and there's dan as savior
johnaltum: and also king
Aspenx3: leader.
Aspenx3: as well, no?
johnaltum: and roland says todana is a derivation of the word todash
johnaltum: i'm not sure... they call cullum dan-tete and that means savior
johnaltum: but they also call mordred the little red king, and that's ALSO dan-tete
Aspenx3: I was thinking of dan-dinh? or am I perhaps mis-thinking?
johnaltum: dan-dinh is a really interesting construction
johnaltum: because the only definition we are given is clearly not literal
johnaltum: but maybe... if todana is the deathbag, maybe dana is the normal healthy aura. that could connect to heart
johnaltum: and the king could be seen as the heart of the realm... and also then the connection to savior works
johnaltum: because we're told 'dan-dinh' means 'i open my heart to you'
Aspenx3: That does work.
Aspenx3: and OH. isn't part of the traditional Arthur legend how the king is connected to the land?
johnaltum: maybe... dan/dash are heart and soul?
johnaltum: yeah
johnaltum: the fisher-king again
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: i have been mentally seperate dan and dinh that way
johnaltum: actually using tarot
Aspenx3: It makes sense. It makes quite a lot of sense.
johnaltum: dinh / king of swords - dan / king of cups
Aspenx3: *blinks*
johnaltum: sorry... do you know any tarot? or am i just being confusing?
johnaltum: king of cups is the fisher-king, the empathic king who is one with land etc ; king of swords is the leader/planner/father/general
Aspenx3: I do know tarot, yes, to some degree.
johnaltum: ok
Aspenx3: but am better with major arcana than minor. *grin*
Aspenx3: so thanks for clarification and eep.
johnaltum: king of swords corresponds to the emperor and king of cups... to.. the...
johnaltum: hanged man
johnaltum: fuck
Aspenx3: ...
Aspenx3: *collapses*
johnaltum: ...anyway that is how i have been seperating dan and dinh in my head
johnaltum: and indeed, cups became hearts in the modern deck
johnaltum: so dan-dinh means 'i make you dinh of heart' ie 'i open my heart to your command'
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: and dash-dinh is maybe the dinh of your soul? with dash and dan being closely related words
Aspenx3: I can see that.
johnaltum: esp. since most kinguistic words are CV root + C for meaning tweak
johnaltum: ie ka kas kal
johnaltum: ...
johnaltum: and of course the root is 'da'
johnaltum: *is bright*
Aspenx3: ... of course. *grin*
johnaltum: dinh i suspect is related but not quite so closely the same as ka and khef
johnaltum: (suspects we can invent 'mian' queen from this)
Aspenx3: V. v. likely
Aspenx3: *keeps records of your thought process on these things*
johnaltum: although obviously if to- is a negative particle that's a real jump forward
Aspenx3: it is. a very significant one.
johnaltum: like when they say 'the crimson king has worked a powerful anti-ka' that might be toka
johnaltum: it doesn't have to be... but we have nothing, and made-up words with possible roots are better than total gibberish
Aspenx3: I completely agree with that.
johnaltum: also, have been considering Can-Ka No Rey as Red Fields of None
johnaltum: it's pretty clearly got 'children of ka' in it, despite the translation given
johnaltum: so I am wondering if the blood-roses are called can-ka
Aspenx3: the roses sing.
Aspenx3: isn't there a thought process for ka related to breath and song from there somehow?
johnaltum: yeah, for the singers
johnaltum: we talked about it before i think
johnaltum: Urs'-ka-Gan etc
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: so if Can-ka refers to the roses, that's probaby the red
Aspenx3: so Can-ka could be the roses yes, because of their song and the red.
johnaltum: and I suspect the No is the None, given Stephen King
johnaltum: so that gives us Rey as field
Aspenx3: Yes.
johnaltum: which is a nice practical word
johnaltum: reyes is a name in spanish. i wonder what it means.
Aspenx3: *thinks* I should know.
johnaltum: Kings.
Aspenx3: because I associate it with ... hang on. yes.
johnaltum: *HEADDESK*
johnaltum: royal, roi, yeah. urgh.
johnaltum: ...
johnaltum: maybe No Rey as No King?
johnaltum: ie the Red Fields of None, that belong to none?
johnaltum: because the Crimson King wants to claim them as his?
Aspenx3: ... why the red fields with the analogous word for King before the place where the Crimson King waits?
Aspenx3: but yes, that's plausible.
johnaltum: well, that's what i mean... it would be plausible to say they're his red fields
johnaltum: they're red, they're in front of him
johnaltum: but the translation is specifically 'the red fields of none'
Aspenx3: *nod* no king, of none. I can see it.
johnaltum: also, the Court of the Crimson King is the Casse Roi Russe, and he's Ram Abbalah in Black House
johnaltum: all with the R
Aspenx3: *nod*
johnaltum: Spanish, French, and... gibberish, i think
johnaltum: although I think Abbalah is meant to be King there
johnaltum: they call him 'the Abbalah'
johnaltum: God there are a lot of words for King
Aspenx3: there are. ergh.
johnaltum: do you remember the three k words for head chest and guts?
johnaltum: all i remember is ki because of ki'can
johnaltum: and the word tah is going to give me an aneurysm, i think
johnaltum: but there's this: Mim is the word for Mother Earth
Aspenx3: ...
johnaltum: Mia - Mim / Pria - Prim
Aspenx3: that's not far off Mia.
johnaltum: ?
Aspenx3: ... yes. *nods* I see the logic there
johnaltum: mother / the Mother / magic - the Magic
johnaltum: then pria-toi would be the power of the drawers
johnaltum: to will into being, maybe
johnaltum: which works, so yay.
Aspenx3: Ooo. Yes it does and yay
johnaltum: that's one of 2 full sentences
johnaltum: the other full sentences is Can-ah, can-tah, annah, Oriza
johnaltum: which is supposed to mean "Woman was created by the breath of man, but man was created by Oriza"
johnaltum: so what is can-tah doing in there?
Aspenx3: ... er. I don't know.
johnaltum: the tah in can-tah is probably also the root of taheen
johnaltum: and tahken, as in todash tahken
johnaltum: but what the common thread is, I have no clue
Aspenx3: Not a clue either. *ponders*
johnaltum: and I hate that sentence.
johnaltum: it's got 4 clauses
johnaltum: each one consisting of a single word
Aspenx3: conceptual words, sorta. but yes.
johnaltum: i think the high speech is a lot like chinese
johnaltum: dan-dinh, for instance, wouldn't be out of place
johnaltum: i don't mean the sound, but the formation
Aspenx3: *nod nod*
johnaltum: every chinese character has a ton of meanings
johnaltum: so you usually use a two-character word
Aspenx3: *fascinated* I know that it's complex, but how much so -- I'm limited in study.
johnaltum: ohgod. I hope it's not too much like Chinese, or we could be dealing with homophones.
johnaltum: in which case there's no hope at figuring it out from stephen king's english-based transliteration
Aspenx3: Augh. *fears*
johnaltum: but fortunately conlangers rarely are naturalistic about having total random words be homophones
johnaltum: esp. not decidedly amateur ones.
Aspenx3: One can hope. :)
johnaltum: can you imagine if someone was examining english the same way?
johnaltum: they might deduce we use bears as beasts of burded
johnaltum: *burden
johnaltum: because you bear a weight
Aspenx3: ... the mental image, I swear.
johnaltum: (you also bear children!)
Aspenx3: and then you can get into all sorts of concepts dealing with the meaning of weight, too.
johnaltum: and wait
Aspenx3: *nods*
johnaltum: oh!
johnaltum: Dam = brains
Aspenx3: Oh?
johnaltum: I had noticed that earlier and forgot
johnaltum: yeah
Aspenx3: eee.
johnaltum: ki'dam is shit-for-brains
Aspenx3: I make lots of notes when talking to you on this. *beams*
johnaltum: hehe
johnaltum: Calyx is resumption
johnaltum: because Can means, among other things, a place
johnaltum: and Can Calyx is translated Hall of Resumption
Aspenx3: Cool.
johnaltum: I think Can means basically anything denoted or defined by its relationship to something else
Aspenx3: it enhances somehow?
johnaltum: most often it means 'people' or 'children of'
johnaltum: like the can-toi, or ki'can
johnaltum: but there's also Can-Steek-Tete
johnaltum: it seems like you can stick ka- before any object or person and not really changed the meaning
johnaltum: and the same goes for can and places
johnaltum: like ka-humes
johnaltum: has the same meaning as humes
johnaltum: also, I was thinking about ka-mai/ka-me and ka-shume
johnaltum: I think a reasonable coinage would be ka-shumai, meaning to go obliviously to one's death
Aspenx3: if you're not changing the meaning, what's the point of the ka part then? no wait strike that
Aspenx3: silly question. *headdesks, thinking of meaning of ka*
johnaltum: I think it intensifies sometimes, anyway
johnaltum: Oy thinks of Jake as his ka-dinh
Aspenx3: *nod*
johnaltum: oh! I keep forgetting things...
johnaltum: I thought of a new way to look at dan/dinh
johnaltum: from reading the thing Roland says to tell the Rods, "dan sur, dan tur, dan Roland, dan Gilead."
johnaltum: dan is focused on allegiance and dinh on obedience
Aspenx3: *thoughtful* hmmmm.
